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thomasbryn1 (Wednesday 15th of October 2008 01:18:18 PM)

Hi Mike,Sorry you misunderstood my allegedly in brackets.I placed it in my answer precisely to avoid the misunderstanding that me and you are having over this.I am using the term GOD TELLS US and then citing examples of awful things he says as evidence that GOD is a man made concept.I am not doing a character assasination of YHWH,as in my mind his character is MEN that invented him.These indiscrepancies show YHWH to be undermined as a hypothesis through contradictions.They cannot be separate.

mefromsa (Wednesday 15th of October 2008 07:07:10 AM)

Our God is Great!!!! I love Jesus!!!!!!

agapemike (Tuesday 14th of October 2008 03:17:27 PM)

"which ARE directly from god's mouth(allegedly)" We're back to the argument that if one points to an action then we must agree that God "telling" means that God exists. This is the concept that many can not leave behind. They want so badly to make others think God is a jerk and therefore does not exist. I'd be glad to surmise the reasoning God might have had to justify ending peoples' lives and debate those points. I'd be glad to debate God's existance. Let's just keep them separate.

agapemike (Tuesday 14th of October 2008 03:08:04 PM)

A lack of conclusive evidence is the essence of faith. With clear evidence there is no longer faith, just knowledge. The scientific method is also untouchable... scientific facts exist only until they are disproven, but the method of discovery is perpetuating and just as self-serving as faith. I always encourage fact-seekers to step outside science and see IT as a device, unrelated to faith. Science attempts to answer "how" Faith attempts to answer "why" Two very different questions.

thomasbryn1 (Tuesday 14th of October 2008 01:26:43 PM)

I agree with you on that one as well, wow we're dong well tonight!But for me the difference is that the sketchiness through time of these early civilizations includes their gods,as it does for Roman Gods,greek, gods,Sumerian gods,Egyptian gods.The only reason the Judean god seems to persist is because the theology is based on pure FAITH and is untouchable by default,unless you make the step of stepping outside and seeing faith as a device.Also I really would like more everyday evidence of GOD.

thomasbryn1 (Tuesday 14th of October 2008 01:22:02 PM)

Point well made and point taken.My memory has failed me on that one.Well done for knowing your Bible well.However I might defend my accusation by saying that it is easy to confuse the butchery of the early civilizations with the commands of God.And your defence,although admirable and correct in THIS case will need to be addressed by yourself when you consider other commands in the Old testement which ARE directly from god's mouth(allegedly) such as with the malekites, canaanites, etc. etc.

agapemike (Tuesday 14th of October 2008 12:12:39 PM)

Furthermore, if you wish to portray the O.T. as factual for the sake of your arguments, then I expect, in intelligent debate, that you give even more weight to the New Testament, much more historically sound by the tests given to ancient texts. Therefore, Jesus IS the son of God, sent to pay for our sins, granting us grace, freeing us to live a life unburdoned by worldly standards. Free will is the gift. My sins aren't God's failings: neither were the sins of biblical people and civilizations.

agapemike (Tuesday 14th of October 2008 11:56:31 AM)

Your argument begs the reader to take these texts as fact to prove your opinion of the nature of God. If these texts are fact, as you portray, your problem isn't that you think Yahweh doesn't exist, it is that you disagree with God's decisions. My argument is that ancient texts, through centuries of social and linguistic changes, can be sketchy as historical fact, but rich in lessons valuable to the people of their time, and many are applicable to our time. That's my view of the Old Testament.

agapemike (Tuesday 14th of October 2008 11:36:26 AM)

God tested Moses by telling him God would kill the people. Moses passed the test by asking for mercy on their behalf. Moses then descended and saw what was going on and HE gave orders to kill. Upon his return to the mountain, God said "...when the time comes for me to punish, *I* will punish..." Ex 32:34 Moses' blunder isn't God's command to kill. Nothing in that text says it wasn't a chastising of Moses. I also don't pretend to understand ancient cultural behaviors and their violent ways.

thomasbryn1 (Tuesday 14th of October 2008 08:33:22 AM)

So when at the bottom of Mount Sinai they construct a golden cow and begin worshipping BOAL(as if they were in some way desperate to worship another god other than YHWHthey are killed out of a desire for the right relationship.That seems an extremely aggressive form of any word however translated,and is in no way a moral example as we see today.The very fact we are debating this is testement to how far we have come morally DESPITE these writings not because of them. Would you not agree?